Peeling Back the Curtain of Character Count with Joe Wadlington

Sweet just one word and you know exactly who I'm talking about Twitter Twitter busted onto the scene as a new social media platform in 2006 and has changed the way Brands everywhere can access the market and Their audience. The launch of Twitter itself was like a much-needed marketing experiment that forced Brands to be more human than a student briefs that conversational tone of Twitter sword. Yep. I see you Wendy's other brands that use Twitter is another mouthpiece fared less favorably Darius say that Twitter allowed may be forced Brands to be more authentic in their communication. I'm Lindsey chap, CEO and co-founder of casted the first and only marketing platform built for Branded podcast.

In this the season 2 premiere of the casted podcast. I have had the pleasure of talking with Joe wildlife and Global creative lead Twitter and Creator and host of the Twitter podcast character count and are interviewed Joe. Lets us in on the worst kept secret at Twitter hear all about authenticity and taking an experimental approach to marketing you and I know where we stand on that right all about experiences and authenticity. So safe to say that Twitter is pretty good in my book bag given their stance on experiments and authenticity. It should be no surprise that their first branded podcast was born out of an experimental marketing project. Joe gives us a behind-the-scenes look up how character count was born out of a quarterly experimental marketing project. He also gave us an eye-opening look at what planning managing activating and measuring for each episode.

Your account looks like an honor of Joe and Twitter. Let's sum up this episode and forty characters ready here how Twitter's podcast came to be home and and at the neighbors and how they keep it authentic by interviewing the people behind the most successful Twitter accounts.

Hi, my name is Joe wadlington. I am the global creative lead at Twitter. I work on the Twitter business team and we help businesses succeed on Twitter and are podcasts is called a character count. I love the name of that podcast. Can I just put that out there character count? Thank you. It took a while. It took a while to figure that one out. I really like it as well and life and the global creative lead at Twitter by started as a copywriter five years ago in my degree is in writing. So I am editor-in-chief of my team. So I'm constantly thinking about what is the character count of the tweets just the character count what character count are we at? So it's one of those things where it's just it's so obvious. I almost didn't want to use it. And then we got no this is this is brilliant. I love it. I love it. And so when when it did come to mind off was it like, oh that's it or did it set on the list for a really long time. So I just asked friends and I posted it and said like what would be the name of a marketing podcast coming from Twitter and then one of my friends

Said that and that was it was kind of on my list and then having someone else say it and I'm sure you know the sometimes those just how brainstorming works you need to sometimes. It's your own idea, but you need it in a different format to bring it into it. And then I put it at the top of the list as soon as I read it in someone else's writing. I love it. I think it's great. Well, you have you have my vote if you would ask me when you started it. I would have told you to go for it. So I'm glad you did some guys unit. So, okay, so that sounds we heard about the name, but let's go back a little bit further from there. How did the podcast come together when when did Twitter decided needed a podcast? So this is kind of character count is a case study and experimental marketing. One of my favorite things about working on my team at Twitter is that every quarter we have at least one experimental project going down. So that means we have one thing that we do not worry about measuring it. We don't worry about where it's going to go. There are too many good marketing ideas that have been killed because someone said

How do we measure this or who else is doing that? That one kills me when you go to your marketing team and you say we need to do something new we need to do something fresh and then they come back with ideas to our new and fresh page and then you say okay, but who else is doing this, you know, you can't have both so every quarter we let ourselves have an experimental project that we are not worried about measuring it is a small amount of budget that set aside for exactly that so we were thinking about what our new experimental project was going to be and podcasts came to mind because you know, we're in this age where everything is starting a podcast and they're very hot to right now. So that was of course top of mind and we realized I did a little research and we saw that you know, if we of course we advertised on Twitter, we advertise through Google ads we advertised on LinkedIn. We do a lot of email marketing and in each of those places, all of our peer networks are also advertising and I did page.

Looking to podcasts and I realize that not only were there no Twitter podcast. They weren't even podcasts that people talking about Twitter. So there would be a few where some social media angst like social media examiner. Would you want episode or like TechCrunch would do an episode on Jack or we'd have these kind of blips that there was no consistent Twitter podcast and the number of years where there either so we realize it was a total blue ocean. We could go there and have no competition and really do something kind of fresh and new and we couldn't believe the Twitter wasn't being talked about in The Office. Cast fear in a meaningful way. So that said it and then we we decided to go full in and then it took us eight months to from the Inception to having a live rep trailer episode. And then our first four episodes were all already recorded and ready to go the month before we launched Facebook launched their podcast the month after we launched MailChimp and linkage.

Launched so which was really wonderful cuz we got to come up with this idea organically an authentically behind closed doors. And if we had waited until someone else was doing it the show that we would have created would have been a reaction to the other shows that were out there. And now if you listen to our podcast and then after that, you would consider a peer of Twitter we have completely different shows but they're just entirely different formats and they're all coming from the business teams of those companies. And so I'm so pleased that we all got to kind of do it separately when no one else's was out yet cuz now we have these independent shows that are not in competition. They're all just like really great takes on Thursday. Typically what that company is, like I love that. I love that because it's it's interesting. I've I've heard both sides of the story about reasons not to do a podcast or anything really which is one is let's play a game.

Can see who else says it first? Like let's let's see what I'll what is everyone else doing to your point? And then there's also like well no one else is doing it. Like why would we need those things? Like? Okay, maybe just do it and took everyone can and does use Twitter. Who is your intended audience for the show? Yeah. I think that with the experimental marketing practices you have to just do it in a weird Twitter and that's what news breaks on Twitter. Nothing moves faster than Twitter. It's the the fastest and those early adopter spot on the internet. So if we're afraid to do something first page and we're kind of losing the bead on who are people actually are, you know, it's very Twitter 8 to just take a chance and to go out there. So I'm big believer in every marketing team having experiments marketing. I'm also a big believer in hating your job as little as possible. And so whenever you have an experimental project, it just makes working on it more fun fact.

Get to give one of your employees some of the passion project and tell them to just go for it. And then I think as a marketer we're all reading each other's marketing will looking each other's marketing. We leave work if he Bill boards and adds, it's just being a good marketing citizen to try and make interesting and creative stuff because it off to consume it. And so even if you don't necessarily know where it's going or who else is doing or where it's going to compatible Eli the landscape just try it just go it'll make your job more fun. And it makes better marketing for all of us just a really good point and I think that that kind of Bridging the Gap between just marketing General and loving your job and that you can you can tell when someone loves her job you'll enjoy working with them. They create better things. They create more interesting things that other people love to consume and that can absolutely be said for podcasting as well. I mean if you're enjoying what you're doing, you can literally hear it in your voice and and people it's more fun to listen to that than somebody really sounding really boring on the microphone because wage

Checking box, right? So yeah, I mean how tell me how this fits in to your overall strategy cuz like you said you came in as a copywriter, right? And so kind of two questions. Is it fit into the broader strategy and how has it kind of fit for you? What is your role look like when we were coming up with character count. You always have the question of who is it for a month? And I'm a Big Y marketer. We always went to come up with who's it for and what are we telling them? Why are we doing this thing and then let them medium. Come on later. I think a lot of misguided marketing campaign happen when people get so focused on this is I need an image. I need a tagline. I need a video campaign when there's so many different ways to reach out to people and to create an emotional connection. So our who was people who are already listening to podcasts. We know it was a huge sphere. We looked at marketing podcasts business podcast technology podcast, and there's a really robust wage.

Corners at the podcasting universe. So we knew of our audiences already out there and character count is about creativity in marketing on Twitter. So it's pretty specific and we honestly don't think that character can't waste the type of podcast that was explosive and interesting enough to convert new podcasters. If you don't listen to podcasts already character count is probably not get you to have a behavior change, you know, we're not solving murders. We're not it's just not spicy enough, but if you already listen to podcasts you already listening to marketing business or technology podcast character count is one of the most interesting ones out there. So I was really focused on thinking of that as already our audience and I was focused on a commuter audience one thing we've really noticed with our mom is we want to make them as helpful as possible and it's a successful thing when someone says there are Community manager there an ad buyer. There are paid marketing person and they can take one of the material.

The Twitter business create take it to their boss and they makes their job easier. So we always want to give you their research you need to argue for Budget. We want to give you the case studies to give you marketing inspiration. So this was the podcast we hoped people would listen to on their way to work which determines the links. That's why each episode is 20 to 30 minutes cuz I thought what is average commute time. I wanted it to be commute latest podcast. And if they show up at work and they can have a meeting with their boss and they say, you know, I was listening to the Twitter podcast this morning and they suggested doing this on Twitter and that way we could validate galvanized our listener the people who are fighting for us that their agency at their business with something that came from the horse's mouth to help make their job easier. I give them inspiration. So it we were very focused on a computer audience and it being that exact by placing to power someone out at the beginning of their day or their lunch break so they can walk into a meeting constantly and get things done on our platform. I love that. That's so important and I think that's wrong.

Really really good bit of advice, which is yes to think about who who's as for why are you doing it? And I think also for practice this is one that I haven't actually heard someone say before is when when is this for a number of people will listen whenever they're going to listen, but what's the intended context of consuming this content? And how does that impact what you put into it? I think that's incredibly important absolutely faith knowing who and then also when helped informed every decision going forward. So the length of our podcast we decided because we wanted a commuter audience and this theme song when we were deciding that and I was working with a producer to create the theme song. I thought what do people want to listen to in the morning and so it's with every draft that we had the same song. I listened to it first thing in the morning to see if it jarring just upsetting for my tires praying and so I think our our even our theme song sounds very much like that kind of morning dizziness getting into the groove you're on the train or in your car off.

And you're listening to some marketing inspiration getting ready for your day and getting excited about the new things that your team can do on Twitter.

So you've created your show we have talked about the back story and how it came together. Let's talk about the day today at this point. So what does managing your show? What does managing character account look like on a day-to-day week-to-week basis today or how character count fits into our strategy is an idea of Deep dive and leaned back marketing is a fact I'm stealing from MailChimp. I interviewed him recently and they have a new series called MailChimp presents that is short documentaries and podcasts and scripted series and their ideas that their email marketing. Their Twitter marketing is lean in there trying to grab people's attention and sell things and they want to do some Lean Back marketing and I think that's very true to a trend we're seeing and marketing now where we want to give consumers as much content as possible for free. We give them as much education and blog posts and articles and tweets for free so they can feel really comfortable in yep.

In with our brand and creating an extremely loyal relationship and so how it fit into our marketing process and the universe of marketing materials that we have is that it was something will do want to go if something that people have is a laid-back thing and it's basically audio success stories. One thing that my team is ask for the most is for success stories. People want to know concrete facts what his business is done on Twitter is successful. So every character Kill episode, you're listening to the person who did the work that was I didn't want CEOs. I didn't want folks were just going to come in and talk about how great their businesses. I wanted people who are in the room who are going to talk about what didn't work the Tactical decisions why they did that why they didn't do this could really answer the question so that it would be practical and practical as possible you listen to an episode of character count You Come Away with specific things you can do. So people love the success stories that we publish and the case study wage.

And we wanted the audio version of that to just do kind of a similar type of content, but for it to be a conversational as possible and then how that goes into my day-to-day is for a character count episode. We want to hit a different vertical or a different corner of Twitter. So if you look at some of the episodes you've already published we have touched gaming Twitter. We have touched cintact and I can Finance Twitter. We have touched Sports Twitter. We have touched travel and Retail and activists Twitter B2B Twitter. So we're hitting all these different Corners wage. We know a lot of our clients lie in and so it all starts as the curatorial decision of what verticals we want to hit next my team also publishes content in eight different languages and across every single time zone wage. Very Global team a very Global audience base. So we're constantly trying to make are examples AS Global as possible. Tell me how your your process works like who's involved. What Cathy?

Rules, do you all play what does creating and Publishing your show look like who are all starts with tweets marketing and Twitter lives and dies with the good tweets. Everybody's trying to find a good sweet home. So it's most people who are in a marketing role Twitter. If you look at their the back of your Twitter their bookmarks section is probably pretty beefy my team since Twitter DM to each other all the time. We are always looking at the good tweets. We will bring a tweet up in a meeting and dissect it and try and figure out what is good or interesting or new about life. And so I have basically repository of everyone on my team is sending me interesting marketing tweets and promoted tweets that they see all the time. It's wonderful and from that I will get interested in a specific company or a campaign that they're running and jump in to see do they have a robust ads campaign. If they've been working are there other interesting things they're doing effectively saying if they have a game

A specifically talk about where we want to kind of raise them up at this ideal of an Advertiser, right? You know, we don't want just if they've did one good promotive add to them pull them on and realize maybe most of what they're producing is actually following our best practices. We narrowed down from there. And then I look into the verticals and the types of companies and industries that we haven't talked about character count next. So right now I'm really interested in bringing on the Travel brand. We haven't done that a fitness Branch Fitness Twitter and skin-care Twitter or a huge and we haven't had any breaks on that yet. And then also Civic infrastructure. So trains local government is a huge on Twitter. I follow all of the the bus system and train system down around San Francisco. So we want one of those companies to come on as well. So I Go Again security really what we have coming out and then I think of the global perspective,

And so we're also looking for non us and non West Coast example, San Francisco. Our headquarters is on the west coast and so we can end up falling into that San Francisco Tech startup. We have a lot of that just down the street and they can be really tempting to just pull someone who's our next door neighbor over but we don't want to do that because that's not who our customers aren't that's just who are neighbors are walk-in focus on them. Then the next step is I reach out to the salesperson or to the person directly. So we've gotten people through their DMS with Twitter business. If someone with the sales associate at Twitter, I talked to that person we've made people in person who have later ended up having on character count cuz several different Avenues and then we talked to them about what they have page and what they have coming out and then if all of that seems good, then I pull in our podcast production company pod people and ask for to get a time at a recording studio.

For most of the episodes that we've done I go to the city that the person is based in. Luckily. We have Twitter offices all over the world. So there's normally another business need where I there's a reason that I need to be in Boise office. So I've recorded in Seattle in LA in New York in London. And then we we scheduled time with myself and the interviewee and then we go in and we recorded we were calling about two or three hours and then cut it down to a good juicy 20 and 30 minute. I like that. That's also something that not that doesn't happen very much. These days is is actually editing cloud content to be what you want to to be interview what your listeners want to hear. Right? Yeah, we really and figuring out character count we knew we wanted it to be as high quality audio is possible because once again with our audience, we thought that there are people who already listen to a lot of podcasts if they're listening to ours and we know that the heavy podcast listener can also get really picky about exploding dog.

Please or the air conditioner in the background and things like that. So we wanted it to be really polished and with a company like Twitter all of the other marketing that they do is really polish. So they're expecting a high bar, So that's why we pulled in a podcast production company pod people if we work with and they are incredible. I'm an expert on Twitter on Twitter marketing curatorial e how we want to sound I can do the program that production of a show and a great narrative Arc. I can do all of those things. I can't do audio engineering and relationships with recording studios and both of those types of things. So that's exactly where the Baton Pass happens with pod people and they're wonderful and letting me have a lot of room and run the ground in terms of narratively how we found and what we want to press them because they know that I'm good at that and they take over in terms of mastering their tracks doing Studio to Studio recordings. We wanted to record with a company in London and I just thought

Hold that to find people and they already have relationships with studios in London. So we just all I had to do was show up and have my notes ready and get to focus on the interview and focus on the narrative, but that's really important. So all that to say when you look back at all of that and when all this was coming together, what is something that really worked well that you could share with listeners like so many people came away with and learned that you think other people should know from your experience something that went really well with character count is how sticky the podcast audience who do I have the suspicion from the beginning of us deciding to do a podcast in that broadcasting is so intimate when you can hear people in your ears and you're often doing your often listening to age, I guess when you're washing the dishes or when you're doing something else you're in your home and so much more intimate experience than I get when I'm reading a white paper looking at a case study anything like that. You really suck.

Take podcast along with you in the life that you're already living you don't disrupt what you're doing for you to a podcast and we saw that in our data as well where people really stuck with it. We have a great listener rates where people will really finish the entire episode or they'll at least finished the main interview that we have with an Advertiser talking about the creative things that they do on Twitter. And so that was really incredible because our website view rate is pretty good the amount of time that people spend on our blog articles and on our web pages and how far they scroll down, of course, we measure all of that but I'm talking like thirty seconds or a minute being really incredible, you know, most people are just spending a few seconds for fractions of a second on a web page. So when you have someone listening to your podcast for 20 minutes for 30 minutes, nothing credible, and then we couldn't scale having an ad specialist talk to someone for thirty minutes about creative you age.

A Twitter for a business and how Twitter can be an exciting place for a business to try new things times of thousands, you know, so when we get thousands of people listening to our episodes for 20 minutes or 30 minutes that just doesn't happen in the in the other medium. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think even to your point, I mean we're getting less and less and less time with our audience wage other mediums and and podcasting holds true with even if it's 15 minutes a 15 minute episode or there's some that are getting to be really long if the content is right and it's suitable for the brand what you're trying to do a job that you know, they really want to be listening for an hour or two. And so it's it's incredible that it's just it's it's operating a whole different plane when it comes to podcasts. Yeah folks attention has never been more valuable and you see it with all of these services that are free. And so what they're they're paying for is the attention of viewership, right? And there's so many options our dog.

Target audiences are folks have I've never had more options than their attention on never been more valuable and to be able to have someone's attention for twenty or thirty minutes is just really groundbreaking. Let's talk now about once that all comes together. And once you have a show, what do you do with it, since you have an episode created what what happens next once we have the episode created the most exciting part start to read it to plan out how we are going to launch it. So we have a lot of different entities going into these episodes. We have our handle Twitter business, which we of course know is going to host it and drives the main part of the conversation, but then we have this company that we interacted with both interviewed and we effectively recorded a interview talking about how good they are at their job and how good they are at marketing so they probably want to promote it as well including the individual.

Well, who we interviewed, you know, we're making that person sound as smart and is counted as they are. So it's probably something that they're going to want to promote as well. That's already three entities. And then of course is that Twitter is this massive there are other areas of Twitter that we may want to talk as well. So a recent episode republished with Dungeons and Dragons and Magic the Gathering we talked to Jake who is the senior Communications manager for Dungeons and Dragons and they discuss how they were taking this Legacy DIY gaming brand new story Klee offline and famously like in basement thousand people are greedy and they've used Twitter to add a digital layer to their game. So it was so interesting and incredible and then gaming Twitter is massive. It's huge and super opinion and passionate then so we have the Twitter owned and operated account called Twitter gaming. So obviously we wanted to bring Twitter gaming in and then one of the managers of that as well is a big Magic the Gathering

Player and so he knew the language news audience. So in coordinating this episode launch, we're talking to Greg personally who has his own vibrant Twitter account. We're talking two Wizards of the Coast the parent company of Dungeons and Dragons and Magic the Gathering entered our business. So that is 5 Twitter handles right there. And then you add in a Twitter gaming which is the sixth one and then Thursday 9 is the host that's seven. So we're working with our designer who does make some animated videos cuz video performs extremely well on Twitter, especially the six to ten seconds Mark of a video. If you can add a video to a tweet, it will normally get pin times engagement of a tree without a video. If you add an image, it gets fixed times. I think it's not between without a video. So without an image, so we're obviously wanting to add some rich media to be used to or designer will take the first 30 seconds of our episode and crazy.

An illustration where you've got the visualiser bumping so people know they should plug your headphones in and they are seeing the text the closed captioning scroll as well because you always want to have a sound off strategy for your own videos on Twitter a lot of folks, you know, they don't have their headphones in at the time. And so we we create that on the train or something exactly and especially for like this podcast we made about commuting home. I can be there, you know, we wanted to be friendly to that. So we cut that video to the six-second take a thirty-second version of the video. And then we have that ready we get some images from the company itself that have their products or for Dungeons and Dragons had this incredible art from Dungeons and Dragons and Magic the Gathering of sorcerers and Griffin wage, you know, we've never gotten to use that before and we create some website cards. The website cards are a Twitter add unit. That just makes the Tweet larger and more clickable and they if you are trying to get people

Website or to get them somewhere other than Twitter a website card is what you want to start out with. It's also the easiest ads unit. If you want to start advertising on Twitter, that's what you got start with cuz they're so strange. So we make these big images for website cards and we have that running and then we talked to the comms folks. It's winter and see if there any medium that were published opportunities that they can think of which see the episode that we have coming out. So it's it's emailing a lot of people kind of the week before to get all of these things ready to share the videos that we've made the images that we've made and then the example sweet coffee we've seen that people are much they always want to tweet but some people get intimidated by that little box and they don't know what's right. So we're kind of a few examples then it just exponentially increases how many people that the episode launches we ordered doughnuts. We get excited. We look at we all open up Twitter page.

Just watch it together and we like and we reply and then we send a big email to our team letting them know the episode is live and we send them link to our tweets and get a bunch of our employees excited about aging as well. So, I mean what you're what you're talking about and you you gave each step in the process, which I'm so glad you did is the importance of really ringing out that content like it's not enough to simply walk publish it and then hope that people find it and loved it and you know crazy for it and share with others like you really do have to put in the work to get as much value out of it as possible you do and Twitter is the place to change things. It's an early adopter audience we've seen as a final editor for our team part of our style guide is we're only allowed to use the word new for six months on something and we have to cut it because every time we use new it performs so much better on Twitter people are wild for new things launches breaking news. And so you want to plan change.

Are launched because it's you know, there's only the only get one shot to make a first impression. So we really try to think of when we're launching a new episode. We want to be prepared and when you make a really good launch when you invest some Outlaw Twitter just gives you so much momentum after that. It's a lot harder to then come back and promote something that is no longer new no longer fresh get people excited. Whenever it when it's got that glossy newness need to use it. Yes that new podcast smell that new podcast smell it goes far people on Twitter crazy for new things. Exactly. Exactly. Aren't we all it's just human nature absolutely dead and that makes honestly for easy copywriting as well as you say new episode fresh episode put your headphones on just in just published, you know, it's it's also easier to promote something else for sure and it's and that's a great tip for listeners. Absolutely to keep that in mind, but don't ever use it right. I mean when if it actually is new you call it call it as such.

But I am interested in how even as anecdotal. Is it maybe how you are measuring the impact? Like what does what does success look like? How do you know it's going the way you want it to go back to character account started as an experimental marketing project and with my team doing one experimental marketing project every quarter. We don't stress about measuring about that thing. I'm going to be measured for that quarter, but then we figure out later if its success and if we want to keep doing it, so the first four episodes of character count where the experiment but we're now on episode 12 months. So it's no longer an experiment no longer knew no longer knew no longer an experiment. We've been producing character account for over a year now and we are other Twitter podcast now cropped up we've been covered in several news sources. We character count is is now a veteran thing and so it's established. So now we are measuring every single episode we are off.

Being at the listening length of time. We're listening looking at when people drop off we're looking at the click-through rates that we get on Twitter and of course subscribes and review age and which were on every single platform that people can listen to a podcast on so we're seeing the different ways that people engage with those in the different listening behaviors. And we've also reformatted the shape of our shows based on the data that we've gotten so we realized we had some drop off early on I think it was like the one minute Mark and so we reformatted the first one minute ever show and we also realized that people listen through the entire interview with the advertiser and so we've taken some of the chunks that we were had in our back half where we talked to a Twitter internal person and we've moved it off and made it effectively like a birthday or break in the middle of the interview cuz we know that people want to stay on do a whole thing. So we've used the data in listener drop off to reform our show great again something that I don't know that people people always

You and that they don't always think that they have access to that kind of information right and depending on what kind of tools and Technology you may or may not but it's really important to watch those metrics and understand how people are consuming your content or or so that you can adjust accordingly continue to tweak. Yeah, and our hosting platform is simple cast. So we put our actual content onto simple cast and that's also where we get our data from home are podcasts is posted on simple cast it plugs into everything else. So also listen our data that we are using to inform our future decisions curatorial e and also the structure of the show come from simple carbs and there are one or two takeaways that you want listeners to remember from your experiences in behind a character count. What would they be? What else would you share two takeaways that I learned from the process of launching and iterating on character count are the it's a dog.

To take marketing risks and it's important to experiment and maybe even the term risk scares people that a little bit too much but to be able to do passion projects and to do things that may not be immediately clear how it goes towards the bottom line. I think they're worth the time that marketing team clicked into them. Well sure the professional development of the people that are on that team and forth good marketing citizens and creating marketing that is interesting and it is Lively and you know, we're all consuming as all the time and we're all looking at what each other doing and putting out there, So sometimes you may not want to do a marketing thing because you haven't seen any of your peers to it. But then as soon as you do that more companies are going to start doing the same thing and they will chase you to that new grounds because there's another marketer in a different building who is so excited that you put that out there so that they can finally show their bond and do that thing. So think experimenting is worse a business has time wage.

Don't always need to know why something is being done or what the end goal is you can measure things after they've been done and sometimes my team makes an experiment every single quarter and the worst ones. We can still performed like medium, you know, we haven't had a single flop where to go to marketers to have a slob you have to trust yourself in that and even if something doesn't perform. Well that is such a valuable information knowing that your audience didn't like something or didn't respond well to it or the time of day was off the medium was also on which was all having those lessons of what doesn't work is just as helpful and my second tip after character count would be invest in people over technology we've seen again and again when we have an interesting Advertiser Story and there's an interesting company and it seems like it would be a great story for a character count and what always seals the deal is needing the person behind the account and if that person is Lively and interesting

Paying an exciting and smart and cared about their job. It's going to be a good episode and so it's not necessarily just about being a marketing team at a really cool tech company that it's not just about jumping in to podcasts because they're trendy and a lot of businesses are doing them and some of them are doing them. Well, it's that we have found like a really good group of people that are kind and are smart and therefore good content is going to come from now. Well said, thank you so much for sharing. Of course. I love talking about character count. It's a passion project of mine. I hope everyone listening will subscribe to character count on where ever find podcasts are downloaded and follow at Twitter business. We make em think of marketing content every single corner, but we also always play the hits we're going to give you your tried-and-true stuff. We make sure everything we're publishing is helpful to our end users. So definitely follow at Twitter business on Twitter and follow. Yep.

At your Wilmington on Twitter for tweets about Dolly Parton and my dating life.

That's it for today's show. Thank you so much to today's guest and to learn more about them and see casted in action with clips of today's show and related content visit casted. Us. Thanks so much for listening.